Francesca and Plumcake want to know:
Wearing sleeveless dresses when one has lumpy-squishy upper arms: confident and sassy, or unseemly and unattractive?
Dress available here.
(The lack of a bra is for another discussion.)
UPDATE: It is always a danger, with the weekly Big Question, that we try to keep it short and simple, and in this case Francesca’s intention in asking the question was lost. She has read all the comments so far (the first 21) and wishes to say, first of all, that she plans to address the controversy in a future post.
But mostly, Francesca wishes to apologize to those readers who, like Francesca, have lumpy-squishy arms and whose feelings were hurt either by the question or the comments or both. Francesca and Plumcake have created a space where we can speak openly of our fat, something we all share. But what we do not all share is how we are dealing with it. Some people feel more pain about it than others, some feel more free to be unemotionally critical of themselves and fat generally than others. In trying to help each other look superfantastic, we must be very careful not to be overly forceful in our critiques. Francesca wishes to say that she is very sorry that she created an opening for people’s feelings to be hurt.
The first rule of being superfantastic is to be kind. (And the second is to wear a good bra.)
Art galleries all over the world are filled with women with arms like this! The only problem here is the one that’s up for another discussion: lack of bra.
Comment by teapunk — November 28, 2007 @ 8:59 am
Teapunk, I am with you here – but again, I see this in fashion, red carpet etc. photos all the time of women who really really (really!) could use some proper support, either built-in or a separate bra. No matter how much one weighs, there are those of us, skinny and not, whose bosoms are just not “perky” – some support would have helped this dress tremendously.
Comment by Toby Wollin — November 28, 2007 @ 9:22 am
well if only those dresses had intelligent straps (wide enough to cover the bra strap and even better with clips to make sure they stay on top of the bras straps…
I mean do they really thing that a DD+ girl can use a strapless that easily (lets start by actually finding it)
Comment by ald — November 28, 2007 @ 9:22 am
I admire women who can do it. But I just can’t.
Comment by Eloise — November 28, 2007 @ 9:25 am
I don’t mind when a woman whose arms are plump wears sleeveless, if the fat is in straight lines. But I have to admit that when I see a woman showing off arms with rolls of arm fat (which I can relate to . . . ) wearing sleeveless, it looks, I don’t know, cheap somehow, like she couldn’t be bothered to highlight her prettier points and downplay less pretty ones.
Like it or not, what one wears makes a statement, and when a woman with SERIOUS arm lumpy-squishies wears a sleeveless top, the statement is “I don’t care how I look.”
As a woman with serious arm lumpy-squishies myself, my vote is to cover the arms and show more cleavage (but with a bra).
Comment by Sarah — November 28, 2007 @ 9:49 am
Sarah says:
I agree going sleeveless makes a statement, but it could be argued that the message is “I like how I look, and I refuse to cover myself up just to make YOU more comfortable.”
“Never go sleeveless” is one of the Fashion Rules For Fat Chicks (TM) that I always endeavour to break whenever I can, for that very reason.
Comment by Fatadelic — November 28, 2007 @ 10:17 am
I think that it is a matter of comfort. Quite frankly, if you have an amazing dress, no one is going to care about your arms. I have big arms but thats not going to keep me from rockin’ with my cocktail dress out.
That said, if you have the “over the elbow” chub, you may want to forgo the sleeveless dress and pick something with a 3/4 sleeve that accentuates your better features, such as your bodacious bust or your heavenly hips.
Comment by Leslie C. — November 28, 2007 @ 10:30 am
I wear sleeveless all the time – my ams aren’t so much lumpy, they’re just…large. The way I figure it, everyone knows I’m a Big Girl, so it’s not like anyone is going to be shocked to see my Big Girls arms when I wear something sleeveless or strapless. Wearing sleeves isn’t going to fool anyone into thinking I have thin arms (or thin anything else!) and there are so many really cute sleeveless tops and dresses out there…so I’m not going to sacrifice wearing them just because I have fat arms.
That said, I do agree with Sarah that rolls of arm fat are not a great accessory, so maybe I’d change my tune if my squishy arms also happened to be lumpy.
Comment by Amy — November 28, 2007 @ 10:31 am
Like it or not, what one wears makes a statement, and when a woman with SERIOUS arm lumpy-squishies wears a sleeveless top, the statement is “I don’t care how I look.”
Why does it have to be that? Why can’t it be: “I think my lumpy squishy arms are beautiful just the way they are”? Just because most modern Westerners think lumpy-squishy arms are ugly doesn’t mean they’re objectively so.
I don’t see how it’s even a question with the model above, I think her arms are lovely. (Although I definately agree about the lack of bra!)
Comment by roses — November 28, 2007 @ 11:11 am
Ohhh, her arms are not the problem there. Why on earth wouldn’t they give that poor gal a proper brassiere???? That’s just mean! Also, why the handkerchief hem? That dress would be so much better (and more modern) with a straight hem right below the knee. Seriously, people, you have to be eleven feet tall to pull off a handkerchief hem and not look stumpy, and even then you look like you got stuck in 1978. Stop the hanky madness!
Comment by Style Spy — November 28, 2007 @ 12:02 pm
Her arms look fine. There are some women (and men) that should try to keep their arms in sleeves but to each his own.
Comment by DJ Nelson — November 28, 2007 @ 12:05 pm
This question makes me sad :(
Comment by dangermouse — November 28, 2007 @ 12:12 pm
Are we asking because the model’s arms are allegedly lumpy and squishy?
If so, I’m with dangermouse in my sad place. Suddenly I want to drop everything and run to the gym to work my arms, because most of what I wear is sleeveless. :(
Comment by JadedKitten — November 28, 2007 @ 12:42 pm
Those are lumpy-squishie arms in the picture? Really?
My upper arms are, to my eye, out of proportion to the rest of me, so they are not often seen in public. But that’s just a peculiarity of mine — when I see women with arms like mine letting ’em hang out, I tend to think, “Good for you, honey.”
I don’t consider the display of any particular body part unseemly merely because that body part is fat — though appropriateness and modesty may make a display of too much of anybody’s flesh, average, fat, or skinny, unseemly in a given situation.
(And I might say in passing that I hate, hate, hate the term “lumpy-squishie”!)
Comment by Bridey — November 28, 2007 @ 1:34 pm
After losing 150 pounds in a year (gastric bypass) I have not so much lumpy-squishies as saggy-wingies. But even with the lumpy-squishies, I always felt I looked like a high school gym teacher (sorry to any of them out there!) in sleeveless clothes. Not for me, personally, but you know, what other women wear is up to them!
I think the arms of the girl above look great in that dress…now the lack of a bra, well, that’s another thing. She needs one!
Comment by Judy — November 28, 2007 @ 1:38 pm
first, i sincerely hope that this model is not an example of lumpy-suqishy arms. because, well, no.
second, i wholeheartedly agree with sarah up there. unfortunately what we wear does make a statement about who we are! letting my lumpy-squishy arms out for air is for home use only.
it makes me sad and it’s unfortunate, but it’s just the truth of the whole thing.
Comment by Brittany — November 28, 2007 @ 1:46 pm
Her arms do not have a case of the lumpy-squishies.
Women that do? Hate to say it, but sleeveless is a big no. I can’t help thinking, “Doesn’t she know how awful she looks?” when I see it. It’s a train wreck I can’t seem to look away from. But we’re talking serious lumpiness here. We have to own what our bodily limitations are.
Same thing with lumpy squishy thighs. I never wear anything above the knee, because that is *not* something that should be highlighted on my body.
Comment by Sara — November 28, 2007 @ 2:19 pm
With arms like that model’s, why cover them up? They’re nice arms. No embarrassment there at all.
But, as others have pointed out, there are arms and there are arms. Just as I think that my body is great, but wearing anything midriff-baring would not be a happy experience for those viewing it, I would keep my arms covered if they were seriously lumpy-squishy.
Actually, I have very nice upper arms, but I still usually keep them covered. I just happen to prefer sleeves most of the time, and have so little shoulder that I can really use any detail in the area to visually enlarge them. That rarely goes with sleeveless.
And yes, this woman desperately needs some boob support.
Comment by Twistie — November 28, 2007 @ 2:20 pm
The arms in this picture are beautiful. Just fine. And I’m with the commenters who aren’t fond of the “lumpy-squishy” term!
I have no problem with larger women showing arms, but as is apparent in this dress, sleeveless or strappy dresses create a larger problem for most ample women, which is that they usually don’t allow for proper breast support. I’m a size 24 with DD’s. I’d be far more worried about my boobs than my arms in that dress.
And I’m 200% in agreement with commenters above that say the worst part of this dress is the awful, awful hem!!! It makes it look like a cheap Halloween costume! Why do only dresses for plus-sized women have these awful hankie hems??? Make them stop!
Comment by Maura — November 28, 2007 @ 2:38 pm
Her arms are not that bad, I have somewhat lumpy squishy arms but I have been weight training and they are getting better. Also, I live in the sweltering region known as Arkansas, I have seen exposed lumpy squishys that would make us all toss our cookies in Wal Mart’s express lanes. This girl is OK by me as soon as they get her a bra, poor girl.
Comment by jen — November 28, 2007 @ 2:41 pm
All these comments are…well, I don’t know. They make me sad.
Comment by caitlin — November 28, 2007 @ 2:54 pm
Seriously. I loved this website, but I don’t love things that make me feel bad. I’ll take my fat arms elsewhere.
Comment by Kristin — November 28, 2007 @ 3:06 pm
Maybe this is a cop out, but I think it’s less the shape of the arms and more the confidence of the person wearing the sleeveless garment. If sleeveless tops make you feel exposed and unlovely, then you shouldn’t wear them. Clothes should make you feel proud and attractive and confident.
I mostly don’t wear sleeveless tops but I have one sleeveless little black dress. I tried it on as a lark, and was stunned with how curvy and sexy I looked. More importantly, I felt strong and confident and pretty. I don’t feel like that in other garments without sleeves. (Yes, I bought it, and have had great reactions when I’ve worn it. Very surprising.)
So I’m for whatever makes people feel best.
Comment by TropicalChrome — November 28, 2007 @ 3:29 pm
OK, weighing in again, so to speak…. I’m with Kristin here, though I’m not going anywhere yet.
I personally don’t accept the notion that there is a part of any woman’s body that, when displayed, can fairly cause a stranger to conclude that she is indifferent to her appearance, though I concede it’s a common enough opinion.
But to say in a purportedly size-positive forum that the sight of any woman’s body makes one want to vomit — well, that really does give me pause.
Comment by Bridey — November 28, 2007 @ 3:34 pm
I live in southern California. Sleeveless clothing is comfortable and allows you to tone down on the air conditioning, which you’ll run 9 months out of the year if you plan to cover up your body fat. Why should thin people be comfortable when I swelter and why should they be able to go outside and enjoy the sun while I am covered?
I don’t care how many people are sniffing “Doesn’t she knew how bad she looks?” People say that about fat women all the time, over every single outfit they wear put on. I mean come on–Sarah’s comment “Like it or not, what one wears makes a statement, and when a woman with SERIOUS arm lumpy-squishies wears a sleeveless top, the statement is “I don’t care how I look” can be said, and is said, to every single woman over a size 12 all the time…I mean, if we cared about how we looked, we’d [insert weight loss invective here…] You’re on a really slippery slope there.
I’m just not one of those people who gets all snippy about what other people wear. I can’t join in with the Manolo, much as I like him, about kvetching about other people’s Uggs, Crocs, arms, tattoos, leggings, or anything else. Those things are ugly, but I’ve got my own problems to worry about. Yes, I notice when somebody of any size dresses nicely, and I hope to be one of those people, but I’m so totally over the “you are what you wear” part of fashion. Clothing is great, but it shouldn’t be something that we make hurtful judgments over with other people. I dress nicely because I like it and doing so makes me happy–the same reasons I read, keep a clean house, balance my checkbook, and have dogs. It’s not about other people, no matter how much they want to try to make my image and my body about them.
Whether sleeveless looks good or not, to my surprise I have often found that sleeveless looks pretty good on me even though from the side, it’s not great. I spent years and years covering up until I move to LA and finally just got so hot and uncomfortable, I uncovered and found I looked pretty without sleeves. I have fantastic skin, for one. Depending on your shape, I think the little cap sleeves can “embiggen” a figure more so than letting your arms be your arms. I suspect this is true particularly for hourglasses.
Comment by Chaser — November 28, 2007 @ 3:56 pm
I often read this blog but rarely comment, and I am really going to try not to sound like I am going on the attack here.
Obviously, I like fashion and care about how I look. (Why else would I read this blog?) However, the idea that we somehow owe it to others to cover up part of ourselves which some may find unattractive is ridiculous. Ultimately, it comes down to the idea of one’s body somehow being public property. It’s not. If looking at someone’s arms makes you toss your cookies, literally or figuratively, you don’t, you know, have to look.
None of us are obligated to look good, or to even care about how we look. We don’t owe looking good (or flattering, or less-fat) to anyone but ourselves, and then only if we so choose.
Comment by Miss Laura Mars — November 28, 2007 @ 4:26 pm
“I often read this blog but rarely comment…
Ultimately, it comes down to the idea of one’s body somehow being public property. It’s not. If looking at someone’s arms makes you toss your cookies, literally or figuratively, you don’t, you know, have to look.
None of us are obligated to look good, or to even care about how we look. We don’t owe looking good (or flattering, or less-fat) to anyone but ourselves, and then only if we so choose.” —Miss Laura Mars
I’m glad that you are commenting and joining in the discussion; that’s what makes this site as super-fantastic as it is. :)
But I have to politely disagree with you on a few points, namely that (1) a person’s body, while not public property, is on public display once they’ve left the comfort of their own home and (2) that we might not “owe” looking good to anyone except ourselves, but…this is how I feel about that rather slippery slope:
Presenting ourselves cleanly, neatly and stylishly to others is just another form of manners, of being polite and considerate to others and to ourselves. To me, it’s impolite when a man is walking around with his pants just low enough and just tight enough to see Ye Olde Plumber’s Crack. It’s not an attractive feature of his body and he should be polite enough to keep it covered up in public. My finding his butt crack unattractive in no way reflects on his personality or who he is inside; his choice to display his butt crack in public does, however.
I’m not comparing butt cracks to lumpy-squishies, obviously, just trying to come up with an example.
I have lumpy-squishies myself and — because I don’t consider them an attractive part of my body compared to others which could be highlighted/enhanced instead — I choose not to display them in public. The same goes for women with the lumpy-squishies on their tummys or thighs. It’s not an attractive feature of your otherwise lovely body, so why choose to put it on display around other people? And, in my mind, what it projects is a stubborn attitude of “I don’t care what I look like; neither you nor me are important enough for me to make an effort,” just as Sarah said above.
And that makes me sad.
Comment by K — November 28, 2007 @ 4:51 pm
I’d also like to point something out – it is sometimes rather difficult to even find a fancy dress that has sleeves – except for Igigi. We will not even discuss wedding gowns. Sleeveless and strapless are the “standard” now. Why is that? To find something with sleeves seems to direct one to looking at the “modest” dressing market, which is rather unfair.
And Miss Laura Mars, I totally agree with you; none of us have an obligation to anyone else to dress in a certain way – short of being charged with public lewdness, I think the whole issue is moot.
Comment by Toby Wollin — November 28, 2007 @ 5:14 pm
I don’t think we need to get too philosophical when we talk about whether something is flattering or not. All women have feelings about our bodies that are more or less fraught, but I think we owe it to ourselves to consider with some objectivity the way we appear to the world. All of us, of any size, can present ourselves in ways that look great, and ways that look not-so-great. If we choose the latter, we’re making a very different statement than if we choose the former. I’m not defending people who read way too much into our choices, but they’re out there, and we can’t just kill them off. Most people will make milder judgments, but judgments nevertheless, because it’s human nature to analyze people’s actions and make interpretations based on them.
It’s not an issue restricted to the heavy – in fact I think people feel more comfortable giving it to thin women right now, at least in public. The comments above made me think of a recent work event where a very thin woman wore shorts, and it’s all anyone talked about all day. The men were especially vicious, but most of the people there were pretty hateful. The assumption was that because she showed her legs, she was proud of their thinness, and must be anorexic. She would have probably made many of the statements above: she felt more comfortable in shorts in the hot weather, she didn’t feel she should need to camouflage her natural body, etc. Nobody should have to deal with that kind of judgment, but you know what? People aren’t always nice. We need to be realistic about our fellow human beings if we’re going to preserve our sanity. This poor woman really would have had a much more pleasant day in jeans, as hot as it was. I certainly don’t dress to disappear, but I’ll admit quite freely that I think about the negative judgments of others as I dress, and do my best to avoid them. Maybe because I was unpopular in high school?
Sooo, back to the arms. For me, my arms are a huge issue. (See what I did there?) I keep mine covered everywhere but the pool, but I’m not going to holler at those who don’t. I’d just rather show off my nice thin(ner) legs. So, for me, it’s long sleeved dresses with slim skirts instead of the sleeveless 50s-style dresses that look so beautiful on a pear. In the summer, linen or thin cotton peasant blouses are actually cooler than letting the sun hit your skin. For formal events, I wear an embroidered silk jacket over a pencil skirt, or one of those long-sleeved dresses in an evening fabric. They’re out there. Of course, I do all my shopping online, but that’s another topic …
Comment by Tachina — November 28, 2007 @ 8:24 pm
Wear what you feel fabulous in & enjoy your life & yourself. It is too easy to hate yourself (or parts) and/or others. This isn’t a contest with only one winner. Is this how I feel about myself & my body? Sadly, “no” – but I am trying to stop being overly critical of my flaws & failings and accept my strengths.
Comment by g-dog — November 28, 2007 @ 8:57 pm
“So, for me, it’s long sleeved dresses with slim skirts instead of the sleeveless 50s-style dresses that look so beautiful on a pear. In the summer, linen or thin cotton peasant blouses are actually cooler than letting the sun hit your skin.”
The peasant blouse. Yeeeeech. I’ve never found anything I look worse in, except for maybe the broomstick crinkly skirts that are sold with them. I’ve never been able to pull off any of those types of looks (couldn’t wait for Bohemian style to go away.) Further, there is plenty of heavy and cotton fabric in the world, especially marketed to plus sizes.
I remain unconvinced. For women with disproportionately large arms, they face an unpleasant clothing choice: size up on the blouse/dress to get the arms in (thereby having the rest of hang in an ill-fitting manner–gar) or let the sleeves be tight (and have the arm versions of muffin tops.) I’m just not sure that those are inherently better choices than just letting your arms be what they are.
Comment by Chaser — November 28, 2007 @ 10:56 pm
I think that we should each wear what we feel comfortable in. That being said… I have challenged myself to step out of my comfort zone and to wear cooler clothing like tanktops, especially since moving to Ohio, where I often find the summer humidity intolerable (I could never live any farther south than this!). I look to people like Beth Ditto for inspiration. Her posing naked for the cover of NME was AMAZING. She’s so inspiring.
Some people get, well, basically outraged when a fat woman dares to wear something more revealing. They think it’s their right to police our bodies. I think there’s more discrimination against fat women, but it does happen to women of all sizes. As Laura Mars said, we are not public property. The problem is not with our arms, or thighs, or any of that. It’s with others. This fact may seem obvious when I state it like that, but think about it: is that what we really feel inside?
One of the ways for us to change what others think is to challenge them by wearing whatever the heck we want despite what we think some other people might say. Furthermore, I know I have worn some things I thought might make me look hideous – like my tanktops in summer – but when I asked others their honest opinions, it wasn’t really that big a deal. I didn’t look as awful as I thought I did. I was the first to criticize myself.
There are always going to be some bad apples who feel the need to criticize others, and it’s usually based on their own poor self-esteem. And there are some clothes that just may not be as flattering to certain figures as other styles would be. But there is a difference between that and one covering herself up because she is ashamed of her body. Don’t hide yourself! Love yourself! Wear what you want. When you are confident about yourself, it doesn’t matter what you wear. That’s what people will notice the most. If people are going to be shallow and judge you, why would you listen to them? They are yucky people. Don’t take what they say to heart. I personally just have pity for them.
So I say to the original post: confident and sassy!
One more thing – to those who find this post saddening: this is a blog dealing with plus-size issues. Things are probably going to come up that are going to be triggering, no? We can’t talk about the issues surrounding fat women (and I use the term in a positive, reclaiming way) without talking about the problems we face everyday. This arm issue is one of ’em.
Comment by Merideth — November 28, 2007 @ 11:31 pm
Testing comment — I keep trying to comment, but they disappear!
Comment by Maura — November 29, 2007 @ 2:33 am
I’m not sure if I’d be considered a “big girl” (I’m 5’10”, which is Big on the Y axis, but I fall within the range of conventional misses sizes on the X axis. Not sure if that matters.) Nevertheless, I don’t always love my arms. As some of the posters have said prior to this, I think women of every shape and size have their own worries and insecurities about their bodies.
I actually like the dress in the photo, and I don’t think the model is unattractive by any means (she is a textbook Pear, and appears to have lovely skin!) but the dress doesn’t fit her well. The handkerchief hem is disproportionate, a skosh too long for her, and it seems to overwhelm her figure. There’s also the obvious support problem up top.
Have you ever gone through a day wearing something that was just ill-fitting, didn’t flatter you in all the right places, and you were uncomfortable and self-conscious all day? Even if nobody else noticed that the garment wasn’t superfantastic, you just didn’t feel good about yourself? I think I’m projecting a little bit of that onto the model. I wouldn’t have given her arms a second glance if the dress fit her better–and I don’t even think her arms are unattractive. They’re…just arms, y’know?
I’ll probably never be totally un-self-conscious about all aspects of my figure, but I just know I feel better when I wear clothes that fit me properly, that skim and billow in all the right places instead of constricting or drowning me. Bare arms aren’t the issue here, so much, IMHO–it’s wearing things that are comfortable and flattering, and on this poor model, this dress appears to be neither.
Also I, too, dislike the term “lumpy-squishies.”
Comment by T — November 29, 2007 @ 10:56 am
And the discussion returns. :)
I’ve gotten in this argument on a few other websites before, although usually about the muffin-top phenomenon more than the arms, but my same logic applies:
1) Love your body and be comfortable with its curves, but…
2) Why in the world would you want to wear something unflattering?
I, personally, NEVER show my upper arms. I am also extremely fair, so when I expose my upper arms it’s like I’m covered in spotlights. On me this is just as unflattering as the lack of support on our example.
I am a very large woman (on the Y and X axis!) and I am okay with this. But you will never see me wearing something that exposes the lumpy-squishy parts of my body because I frankly find that very unflattering. Your eye is immediately drawn to this. Not to your gorgeous face, not to your fantastic shoulders, not to your great legs.
I’m sure I’m in the minority here, and I don’t mean to offend. This is MHO, but it’s non-negotiable when it comes to my clothes.
Comment by sara — November 29, 2007 @ 12:38 pm
Some of the other comments have alluded to this, but it bears repeating: other people don’t pay nearly as much attention to our physical appearance as we sometimes imagine they do when we are feeling self-conscious. Most people are too busy worrying about themselves and wondering what others are thinking about *them.* We tend to magnify our own physical imperfections in our minds and we imagine that everyone else is focusing on them, as well. But guess what? Most of the people who have seen you today probably don’t even remember what you are wearing, let alone whether your arms look fat, or you have a big zit, or you are having a bad hair day. So, I am with the “wear what you like” crowd, as long as what you like is appropriate for the occasion.
Comment by Cat — November 29, 2007 @ 12:46 pm
Maura, me too! I don’t think I’ve said anything controversial enough to get caught in the spam filter or be banned.
Comment by Fatadelic — November 30, 2007 @ 5:43 am
Maura and Fatadelic-
Francesca has asked our esteemed guru, Manolo the Shoeblogger, about the policy of our wonderful spam filter.
He said that many seemingly innocuous words are included in the “red flag” category — and mark your comment for moderation — because spammers were using them in ways that were not, indeed, innocuous.
For example, if many spam comments come in offering, say, a good deal on computers, then the word “computer” might be added to the spam list — and then anyone who includes the word “computer” in her comment will have it set aside for moderation.
It is unfortunate, but such is life. There is A LOT of spam out there. Do not worry, Francesca and Plumcake check into the “moderate comments” section often.
xoxo,
Francesca
Comment by Francesca — November 30, 2007 @ 10:14 am
While I am a woman with the big arms, they are blessedly devoid of lumpy-squishiness. However due to my dislike of them I have gone with a different sort cover up by covering mine in tattoos. Big arms are therefore a plus because I have more canvas for my ink and no one really seems to notice the size of your arm because they are either in awe of or disgusted (lame!) by your tattoos.
Comment by AngelleNoire — December 28, 2007 @ 3:50 pm