By Plumcake
First of all, because I KNOW my family e-stalks me on this thing, I have to announce that I Am Not Getting Married.
Really. I have two lifetime commitments and those are to Jesus and the lady who does my eyelash extensions (Hi Shelsea! Hi!) and if I’m overdue for a fill and the only availbility she has is on a Sunday. Well. I don’t think I need to finish that sentence.
Anyhoodle, for NO REASON AT ALL I’ve had marriage on the mind recently, particularly engagement, so I’ll ask a question about that.
Today Miss Plumcake wants to know:
What do we think of the tradition of the fiancé asking Big Daddy’s permission before popping the question? Is it a sweet gesture or patronizing insult?
October 29th, 2008 at 3:16 pm
I am very close to my parent’s and we’re a bit traditional in some ways. My husband asked my step-dad’s permission, but he knew that he already had his blessing. We were also kind of suddenly together after being friends for years. In some families, it wouldn’t be appropriate, but it worked with mine.
October 29th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
When my then boyfriend/now husband asked my dad for my hand in marriage, my dad’s response was, “Son, don’t you want a more exciting part of her than that?” I thought it was a sweet gesture that my husband asked; my dad thought it was incredibly embarrassing and old fashioned.
October 29th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
I think it varies on the family and the lady and their relationship to one another.
Personally, it’s a big fantasy of mine for any future fiancee to ask my MOTHER for my hand in marriage. From the age of 11 she raised me on her own, and I think it’s a sign of respect for the dual roles she had to play that he ask her.
October 29th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
My father had died when I was 9, so there was no question of asking his permission or blessing. However, my husband *did* ask my mother for her blessing (not permission). Both Mom and I thought that it was a sweet gesture, but recognized that it really was only a gesture — we all three knew that even if she had said “No,” it wouldn’t have changed anything (except that both Hubby and I would have been more alert for possible MIL problems.)
October 29th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
I think it’s a nice gesture, as I believe (speaking of Western culture only) it’s pretty well understood that it is a gesture and that the father isn’t the one making the ultimate decision. Since marriage is hopefully a blending of families rather than just something between the wife and husband, it’s good if the family is happy about the addition to the clan. If they’re not it’s either a sign that some major PR needs to be done, or maybe a bit of re-thinking may be in order.
October 29th, 2008 at 3:52 pm
Mr. Twistie never thought of asking anyone but me whether he could marry me. If he’d asked my father for permission, I imagine the only reaction he would have gotten was a blank look of confusion followed by a hint that he was asking the wrong person.
I know there are some families where not asking a parent is considered a sign of disrespect, but in mine being asked would have been met with more befuddlement on my parents’ part than anything else…and might have resulted in Mr. Twistie being a single man today.
After all, I was well past the age of consent. I’d have been seriously put out by the idea that he felt he needed anyone else’s permission to marry me than mine.
October 29th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
I personally think it’s a little old-fashioned, but my boyfriend’s religion requires the permission of all living parents on both sides, so I know that when he’s ready to ask me (I like this assumptiveness I have, lol), he’ll ask mom (and step-dad, probably) for their blessings.
On the other side of things, one of my former roommates insisted that her boyfriend ask her mother for permission when they got engaged (after she’d already taken the ring). Her mother said no. o_o But that’s a whole different (long, involved, painful) story.
October 29th, 2008 at 4:21 pm
My daddy could care less about my fiance consulting him in any way (he thought my sister’s now husband asking his permission before he popped the question insulting to my sisters intelligance, and I kind of half to agree), my fiance intends to ask for his blessing in person. His blessing, however, may not be able to be given until a day before our wedding, schedules being what they may and the fact that I have yet to be able to get all of us in the same place at the same time and we’re getting married in February. My fiance has met my mother, though, and she adores him, so my daddy’s blessing shouldn’t be too hard to obtain. :)
October 29th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
I view marriage as a blending of two families, so I think it’s vitally important for the two people getting married to get the blessing of parents on both sides. (I’m also a lesbian, so I expect my daddy will be a bit shocked if I wind up getting married and my future wife and I ask for his blessing.) My sisters are both engaged, and their future husbands both asked my mother and father for their blessing before proposing, and my mother spoke to my brother and me before passing on her diamond ring for one sister’s engagement ring and her ruby ring for the other, the boys have been welcomed into the family with open arms, and my parents are already referring to them as their son-in-laws. :)
October 29th, 2008 at 4:31 pm
Blessing? Sure, that can be sweet, depending on the people involved. But “permission?” Oh, HELL no. And I’m of the opinion that any parental consultation should happen AFTER one’s intended says yes, not before, but if you really want your parents to know you’re getting married before you do, have at it.
Also, what are you supposed to do with this tradition if the woman’s the one doing the asking?
October 29th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
Plumcake dearest,
As a woman who is married to a woman – legally in Canada in the days before our own benighted country recognized ALL marriages in any state besides Massachusetts (and with a BIG shoutout to California and Connecticut and a hopeful bridal bouquet tossed down towards Texas) – I am curious as to how you would amend your question to include all of us same-sexers, boys and girls? Will say that while we certainly didn’t ask any of our four parents’ permission, and while three of them gulped pretty hard, they all showed up in festive wedding garb to celebrate with us in Toronto and then at our big religious (cause we have an abiding love for our Adonai too) wedding shindig with a loving cast of hundreds in RI. Which certainly counted as a blessing as far as we were concerned. LOVE this blog!
October 29th, 2008 at 7:02 pm
Rosa, I can’t speak for Plumcake, but it seems to me in the majority of cases asking permission is more of a formal declaration of intent to ask rather than a binding agreement between parent and suitor. As much as I personally detest the tradition, I would think the only difference would be the question of how accepting or how violently opposed the parents are…which can also come up for heterosexual couples in some instances.
On a personal and professional level as a shameless romantic and the weekend editor of Manolo for the Brides, I’m all for celebrating more marriages between people in love, whatever traditions they choose to follow, ignore, or adapt to their own situations.
Oh, and it may be a bit late, but I wish you and your lady all happiness and many years of joy together.
October 29th, 2008 at 7:23 pm
Asking the father goes back to when girls were universally sold in marriage, so, ick. Also, I was “old” at the time and my father was so inappropriate relieved that the thought of what he might have said frightens me. He’s the kind of guy who says exactly what is going through his head at the time, bless him.
October 29th, 2008 at 7:46 pm
Not a chance in He**. I love my father but if my husband had gone to my dad/mom first I’d of been pissed and he knew it. I was in my late 20’s and fully independent. Our marriage is between us and not family members.
Now he did ask my ‘rents for their individual blessing after we were engaged.
October 29th, 2008 at 8:12 pm
Wow, seems that I am the lone voice, but yes, my fiance did ask my dad for permission. It was never questioned that once he asked, dad would say yes (they loved him from the beginning), but there was the expectation that he would ask. I think it is one of the ways that my dad has taken care of me is that he would watch over and need to approve any men who wanted to be in my life — I’m young enough still that I want that. And it shows respect to my family if my fiance asks permission — after all, their lives will drastically change when I get married.
October 29th, 2008 at 8:32 pm
ameliewannabe’s dad is freakin’ awesome! :D
October 29th, 2008 at 8:43 pm
My ex-husband asked for my dad’s permission, which I thought was hysterical.
Even more hysterical was my dad telling him, “well, the only thing I ask is that you don’t ever say that I didn’t warn you!”
October 29th, 2008 at 8:45 pm
Depends very much on the family involved. My now-husband spoke to my dad ahead of time not because I felt the need for it, but because it would mean a lot to my dad for him to do it. Of course, the end result of the conversation was, “My daughter does as she sees fit.”
October 29th, 2008 at 8:51 pm
I made it very plain to the future Mr. Ripley that if he asked my dad for permission to marry me, then I would say “No.” I was independent and had been a feminist for years. To ask my dad for permission smacked of a patronizing lack of regard for my core beliefs.
After we got engaged, however, he ask my parents for their blessing to join the family, and I called his folks on the phone and asked for his parents’ blessing to join their family. I did recognize that our families would be blending and that seemed like a modern way to acknowledge it.
October 29th, 2008 at 9:05 pm
I think it depends on the woman and the family.
My husband didn’t ask permission from my father, and I very much doubt anyone who marries any of my sisters will ask, either: both because of who we are, as women, and who my father is, as a father.
My brothers did ask permission, mostly because of the kind of family they were marrying into. In at least one of the families, I think it would’ve destroyed any chance of a cordial relationship with the in-laws if my brother HADN’T asked.
October 29th, 2008 at 9:10 pm
I think it’s a sweet gesture… but then again… I’m old fashioned….
but anyway…You better represent that love connection with Jesus! He’s great….
Love your blog, btw!
*Star
October 30th, 2008 at 12:01 am
I don’t think asking for permission is necessary anymore, but if the family is into it asking for blessings is cool. Wouldn’t work for my family, and if I jump the gun and propose (been thinking about it, who needs to wait for the guy anyway) my boyfriend’s family would just be happy for us, no matter who asked for what before the proposal.
October 30th, 2008 at 12:27 am
I think it’s pretty insulting if the lady is independent (i.e. living on her own, not under Daddy’s aegis) — and if she’s still too young to leave the nest, I’d be concerned that she wouldn’t adjust well to married life.
October 30th, 2008 at 2:29 am
I’m in much the same boat as Twistie. I think that if my husband had asked for my father’s permission, my dad would have given him a blank look and said, “Why are you asking me?” I made it clear to my husband well in advance that asking Dad’s permission was neither necessary nor desirable. We called our families after we purchased my engagement ring (there was no “proposal” as such, just a decision that we knew we wanted to get married, and it was time to announce it to the world). I think we asked their blessing, but I was so excited that I don’t remember very clearly.
October 30th, 2008 at 3:36 am
I don’t think it would have occurred to my husband to ask my parents first, nor would it have occurred to my father that he might be asked to give permission. I was almost 30 when we got engaged, and I would have found it weird and off-putting. As would my dad, as would my husband, for that matter. Even the blessing thing…eh. Not insulting, but it would have been weird. Our marriage is about us. It’s wonderful that my parents love my husband they way they do; but we didn’t feel the need for their blessing before we got hitched.
October 30th, 2008 at 8:07 am
In the event I ever get engaged, I will make sure my imaginary fiance asks my dad and my mom for their blessing because I know their feelings would be very hurt if he didn’t.
If the imaginary fiance were to ask for permission, a battle royale would soon follow.
October 30th, 2008 at 8:24 am
I was on the back side of 50 when Mr. Carol and I got engaged. He did ask if he should ask my parents for permission – I told him the answer would most likely be “OK with me, but you’d better ask Carol first since she’ll have to live with you”. We did ask for their blessing and that of his mother which was freely and happily granted. We also spoke to our children – 6 between us! – and sought their blessing as well.
(He didn’t tell me until later that my oldest son told him to treat me well or else. I’d been a single mom since son was 10 years old and he very much felt he was the man of the family. So far, so good!)
October 30th, 2008 at 8:51 am
I can only assume that my father would say something similar to those quoted above, probably “What makes you think I have any say? Have you *met* my daughter?”
However, I don’t think he needs to ask, since my own mother keeps asking my boyfriend of 7 years “what his problem is” and “why aren’t you married to my daughter already”….
We are sure we have their blessing already :P.
October 30th, 2008 at 10:07 am
Any man who felt the need to ask my father’s permission to marry me is not one I would want to marry. I’m a grown woman who has not asked my for my parents’ permission for anything in 15 years, and I find the practice patronizing and deeply insulting.
Asking for the blessing of my family, that’s a grey-er area. Though, they’re so ready for me to be married and popping out kids, they’ve probably already issued a carte blanche blessing to all eligible bachelors in the greater Boston area.
October 30th, 2008 at 11:01 am
My dad is old fashioned and was disappointed that my ex didn’t have a talk with him before popping the question to me. If there’s a next time around, I may gently hint that a declaration of intent to my parents before the deed might be a good idea (plus it might net him some family jewels to use). Because, really, if we’re approaching that point, I’m going to know something’s up anyway.
… and if my current beau ever pops the question, I fully expect that he’d go through the formalities, because despite being a modern guy, he’s an old-fashioned romantic.
October 30th, 2008 at 2:13 pm
Nope. Never. I have been married over 24 years and if my husband had asked my father’s permission there would have been no wedding. Also, I believe my parents would have expressed any concerns prior to our engagement, because it was pretty apparent we were going to be married. As with another writer, my father would have probably suggested the wrong person was being asked.
Of course, if there are cultural or religious reasons to ask, then I think one must go with whatever is kindest and appropriate.
October 30th, 2008 at 3:47 pm
My dad would have loved it (mostly because he’s a big old romantic sap), and I would have been deeply confused and probably insulted. My husband and I both come from families that are very big on the “traditions” (yes, it requires quotes in this case), but we also both kind of detest that whole mindset and have actively tried to avoid it in our own lives.
In short, if you want someone’s approval ask my cat, not my father.
October 30th, 2008 at 5:14 pm
I want my guy to ask my dad (not my mom, please) because my dad and I have a special relationship and I think it’s a mature gesture to acknowledge that his blessing is important. I’ve been independent for many years now but I still think it’s important to have everyone’s blessing. I would probably do as another said and ask his family (after we were engaged) for their blessing, too.
Plus, my mom is dying for me to get married so there’s always the fact that if I was getting really close to marriage with a guy and my dad said No, I’d have to seriously consider whether there was something wrong with my boyfriend I was missing.
October 30th, 2008 at 6:21 pm
My husband did, and it was the sweetest thing ever. He called my house and asked to speak to both of my parents and they both cried and were very excited.
Besides, it was a nice way to sort of torture my mom, because she knew I was getting engaged for I did and she was DYING to tell me! lol
October 30th, 2008 at 6:22 pm
On a related semantic subject: on the Real Housewives of Atlanta, didn’t Kim buy a shockingly expensive bracelet on Big Daddy’s black AmEX card *before* asking his permission? Shouldn’t she have asked Big Daddy first?
October 30th, 2008 at 7:17 pm
Put me down on the side of “patronizing insult” – and fortunately both my dad (he raised me right) and my husband (wouldn’t have married him otherwise) feel the same way.
My dad did ask if I expected him to “give me away” at the wedding, pretty confident that I shared his opinion that that custom was just as silly. I told him he needn’t worry about it, as my husband didn’t have any goats to give him in exchange for me.
October 30th, 2008 at 9:09 pm
Whatever works for you is OK with me as I can see both sides of this depending on the fiancee-to-be, their family, your family, etc. I think, especially the “blessing” vs. permission request, can be a very sweet & respectful way to inform your in-laws-to-be. But, of course, especially when I was younger, nobody speaks for me but me!
I agree with: ameliewannabe’s dad is freakin’ awesome! :D
And heartily 2nd the best wishes for Rosa and partner for a long and happy life together! I cannot fathom why anyone believes that “gay’ marriage somehow devalues/destroys “traditional” marriage/family (hasn’t anyone noticed what we have done to it already?)
October 30th, 2008 at 10:03 pm
I used to want a man that would be thoughtful enough to ask my father ahead of time, but then I realized my Dad would never like anyone I picked!
October 30th, 2008 at 10:31 pm
OHHHHH no. I remember reading some Shakespeare play–Midsummer Night’s Dream, possibly?–when I was a kid, and one character told her dad that if he liked dude X so much HE should marry him. I loved that, at the tender age of–seven? eight?
He’s marrying me. He asked me. I’m a grownup, and there’s no permission involved except mine and his.
October 30th, 2008 at 10:42 pm
–But blessings are OK, I guess. Particularly *after* the intended has given his/her answer.
October 30th, 2008 at 11:31 pm
In my family, hah, never, but I did have a friend whose Jewish soon-to-be-fiance went to her incredibly traditional Baptist parents to ask for their permission/blessing. I thought it was a wonderful gesture, as both my friend and her man knew what her answer would be when he asked her and she really hoped for something to smooth the waters with her parents. Of course, none of us counted on The List her parents pulled out of their concerns (which included his faith, the fact his parents were divorced, and the fact that he drinks alcohol-not frequently, AT ALL!) I wouldn’t mind asking for a blessing, but I think that would be after the engagement and involve all parents.
October 31st, 2008 at 7:41 am
My boyfriend wanted to ask my dad first, but I asked him not to. I haven’t lived at home for several years now, and have lived with my boyfriend for 2 years. I don’t need my dad’s permission. It definitely falls under the category of ’silly tradition’ for me. We’re going to have a lot more fun surprising them with the news in a week or two.
October 31st, 2008 at 10:34 pm
I asked my husband and didn’t ask his parents’ permission or blessing. Ten years and two kids on, everything seems to be just fine:) If he had asked my parents’ permission or blessing, he would have spent those 10 years with someone else!
October 31st, 2008 at 10:35 pm
I was the one who popped the question, and certainly didn’t ask his parents’ permission or blessing ahead of time. Ten years and two kids on, everything seems to be just fine:) If he had asked my parents’ permission or blessing, he would have spent those 10 years with someone else!
November 1st, 2008 at 6:58 pm
Either way is fine depending on the feelings of the bride — the test would be whether or not the prospective groom made the right call. Personally, any man who asked my father for either permission or blessing before proposing to me would get the ol’ heave-ho — I’m the only one who gets to make that decision about me. (Of course, being as my father has been dead for four years, there would obviously be other, more pressing reasons there for disqualifying said suitor.)
November 2nd, 2008 at 8:26 pm
Not asking permission, my man said “Sir, may I have your daughter’s hand in marriage?” It cemented their relationship.
November 3rd, 2008 at 12:29 pm
Maybe it’s just me, Alana Sullivan, but I’m curious to know how asking ‘may I’ is not asking permission.
November 4th, 2008 at 12:00 am
While I think it is a quaint tradition, it begs the question; What if Dad says “no”? And worse, what if Dad says “yes” and I say “no”?
November 5th, 2008 at 4:05 pm
What century are we in? Ask for permission? Hell, no! Are you an adult person who can make your own decisions? If not, why are you getting married? Why not let your parents arrange a marriage for you?
Old-fashioned, traditional, whatever you want to call it, it’s still a throwback to a time when you were your father’s property and that property was being transferred to your (future) husband.
I’m over 50, and even when I was in my 20s I was opposed to the idea, as was my father. He would have like to approve of the man I married, but if he didn’t, he would have figured I could make my own decisions for my own life.
November 6th, 2008 at 11:00 pm
My fiance proposed to me two weeks ago, in front of 350 people at the Renaissance Faire we both work at (and where we met). He presented me with four dozen roses and his grandmother’s engagement ring. My family was there, his family was there, and it was a truly wonderful occasion. Especially because I knew he had spoken with my father (though he COMPLETELY surprised me and I am rather an idiot for not noticing anything). By making that gesture, he let me know that he respects my family’s roots, and wants to build a healthy foundation for the family we will have together. In most (healthy, if not normal) family dynamics, this tradition has a beautiful place in cementing (and proving) a man’s bond to the woman he loves. Or the other way around. :-)
November 6th, 2008 at 11:06 pm
Just as a quick aside, I also think that if you’re not into this tradition, that’s totally cool too – this is just the way I feel about it. :-) (PS – if you want to see the proposal, type “sonny and andrea” into YouTube, it’s the first one that comes up. :-D